The purpose of the site is simple; editors will be quietly documenting outright lies peddled by the Daily Mail, and seeking to bring this culture of fear and falsehood to the attention of those Mail readers curious enough to use a search engine or browse the evil underground world of weblogs.
(Note – Our search engine kung fu is strong. Soon it will be mighty.)
However… if you think I’m going to read the Daily Mail every single day from now on, you’re mental. I’m not going to ask any other editors to do what I’m not prepared to do myself, so I’m asking readers of Daily Mail Watch to keep an eye out for any outright lies in the Mail that our editors should be writing about, which should take the pressure off our editors, and make sure that important lies don’t pass without mention (even if they don’t result in a main-page report).
I’ve been very patient with our Mr Jenvey. I have gone to great lengths to better appreciate and even adopt his position on ummah.com (i.e. that they are in league with terrorists), but Mr Jenvey still persists with a Carnival of Irrelevant Evidence; an endless barrage of historical data, none of which is relevant to the matter at hand, and none of which provides an answer to the following question that he has gone to considerable effort to avoid again and again and again (and again):
Did you register to comment on ummah.com using the profile names ‘saddam01’ and/or ‘r.tims’?
Glen Jenvey has, in two responses, denied involvement with the ‘abuislam’ account. Again. He has also claimed that an unknown party has scanned a computer that he owns, ‘proving’ that this computer has not been used to post to ummah.com (ever ever ever), but this is only an alleged scan of a single machine (in a world where many people own or have access to at least two), and it does nothing to answer my question regarding specific profile registrations.
Also, after more than a day’s worth of email correspondence, Mr Jenvey still hasn’t decided if the audio featured in this post is authentic or not (when my initial request was for a statement regarding its authenticity).
Patrick Mercer’s people are kindly looking into the matter, but not a word has reached me from Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles or his staff.
I’m out ploughing the lower forty for most of the day, but my current thinking is that I should release more audio to help Mr Jenvey in his endeavour to make a ruling on its authenticity and maybe chase the alleged cousin/’Mike’ for comment.
On Tuesday 10 March the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights will discuss whether or not to hear my evidence on the UK government’s policy of using intelligence from torture. They discussed whether to hear my evidence on 3 March but failed to reach a conclusion.
The government is lobbying hard for my exclusion. I need everybody to send an email to jchr@parliament.uk to urge that I should be allowed to give evidence. Just a one-liner would be fine. If you are able to add some comment on the import of my evidence, or indicate that you have heard me speak or read my work, that may help. Please copy your email to craigjmurray@tiscali.co.uk.
Please also pass on this plea to anyone you can and urge them to act. Help from other bloggers in posting this appeal would be much appreciated.
My letter appears below. Please don’t feel that you need to echo my point, as it addresses matters in a practical way that some might consider insulting:
To: jchr@parliament.uk
CC: craigjmurray@tiscali.co.uk
From : Tim Ireland
Subject: Craig Murray’s evidence
Dear Sirs,
I became aware of Craig Murray after he warned our government of torture and abuse in Uzbekistan, and had his career and reputation rubbished in response. I then later watched a senior cabinet member (Blunkett) praised by then-PM Blair as a man without a stain on his character – after he had actually done what Foreign Office elements of the same administration had only falsely accused Murray of (see: visas/favours and adult situations).
I have also watched Jack Straw turn down the most perfect opportunity to challenge Murray on his claims at a public meeting (see: 2005 general election). It wasn’t until Murray had left the room that Straw felt comfortable enough to claim that ‘we don’t do torture’.
Only now we find out that, in some cases, we do. We also found out a while ago that Jack Straw and Tony Blair had arrived at a policy of not being drawn on detail when discussing torture with the public.
And part of what Craig Murray claims – “I was told at this meeting that it is not illegal for us to obtain intelligence gained by torture, provided that we did not do the torture ourselves” – fits perfectly with recent discoveries of our role in overseas rendition, does it not?
It’s those pesky details is what it is, but I think you’ll find them the key to this matter, rather than a distraction.
You’ll also find that many people will remain deeply suspicious of this government (regardless of your findings) if Craig Murray is not allowed to present his evidence, especially after so much effort has gone into suppressing it.
And one of the big factors of torture – i.e. one that impacts on us as a nation – isn’t how things are sometimes, but how they appear.
Close Murray out of this investigation and the government will look as guilty as all hell, if you’ll pardon my manners.
Cheers
Tim Ireland
www.bloggerheads.com
A lot of work has gone into burying Craig Murray and/or his testimony. Let’s help to undo it. Just for kicks, because we’re wild and reckless and bored.
Posted inIt's War! It's Legal! It's Lovely!|Comments Off on Craig Murray must be heard by the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights
UPDATE (12pm) – It goes slowly with Mr Jenvey, who has just signed off for a time. The short version is that I’m willing to take on board all claims of ummah.com’s involvement with terrorism and listen with great interest to anything he’s got to say on the record, but Glen’s doing everything he can to avoid answering this question:
Did you register to comment on ummah.com using the profile names ‘saddam01’ and/or ‘r.tims’ ?
(I should point out that, in reply to this question, Mr Jenvey has again denied posting as ‘abuislam’. Twice.)
(So is The Sun spending most their budget on watching Jade Goody die and filling in any blank spots with stuff they found on Google Earth? It certainly seems like it. And if you don’t mind me saying so, it’s this kind of clever newspapering that makes Rebekah Wade long overdue for a promotion.)
Note – Any use of the audio featured in this post (or text from same) must include a link to Bloggerheads.com – ideally, a link to this post and/or any relevant update – or (for non-web use only) a clear text credit for ‘bloggerheads.com’
CURRENT STATUS OF AUDIO (LATEST AT TOP): 16 Mar 2009 – Audio confirmed here as authentic. These are two *actual* recordings of Glen Jenvey speaking to an unknown interviewer, recorded sometime after 05/02/2008, most likely on or about Monday 25/02/2008 02 Mar 2009 – Two alleged recordings of Glen Jenvey speaking to an unknown interviewer, recorded sometime after 05/02/2008
_______________________________
THE INTRODUCTION
_______________________________
I think it might be best to allow Glen Jenvey to introduce himself, as it’s that kind of post:
Glen Jenvey worked for several military attachés covering terrorist groups, including al-Qaida and their members in Britain. His sting led to the capture of Abu Hamza al-Masri, a major terrorist. Multiple other terrorists were also caught due to his efforts. He has been profiled and interviewed in major media across the globe, including in the US, UK, Russia, India, etc. He co-authored the book “War of the Web” with Jeremy Reynalds. (source)
A moderator of the relevant forum (Ummah.com) declared that the same person who had registered a profile under the name ‘Abu Islam’ [abuislam] (used to falsify evidence of extremism) had also registered a profile under the name ‘Richard Tims’ [r.tims] (used to promote a website that was later discovered to be listed elsewhere as belonging to Mr Jenvey).
Since then, there have been many anonymous contributions seemingly in favour of Mr Jenvey’s position, but nothing verifiable… aside from the statements featured here in this article by the same Jeremy Reynalds:
In an e-mailed statement, Jenvey denied being Abu Islam, adding that some inflammatory posts formerly on the site have now been either removed or manipulated to the forum administrators’ advantage. He said, “Over the years I have monitored both www.ummah.net and www.ummah.com and their chat rooms. I know they hate me enough to try and discredit me.” (source)
Richard Bartholomew pointed out here and here that none of these statements addressed the identity of ‘Richard Tims’, so – via Jeremy Reynalds – I asked:
Glen Jenvey, do you deny posing as Richard Tims, using the name Richard Tims or knowing anyone by the name of Richard Tims?
This arrived on Saturday:
Hello Tim,
I have been in contact with Mr. Jenvey. He says that he is not Richard Tims, that law enforcement officers are looking into your site’s “hate comments” about him, and that he will be in touch with you soon.
Best regards,
Jeremy Reynalds
It is my understanding that, yes, Glen Jenvey has made a complaint to the police accusing me of hate crime… but I’m trying to be as understanding as possible about that, because it is now clear to me that Mr Jenvey himself is being actively targeted by al-Qaeda.
I know. But bear with me as we go through the evidence…
_______________________________
THE EVIDENCE
_______________________________
For now it’s important that you take a moment, as I did, to reflect on the following undeniable facts:
– Glen Jenvey denies being ‘abuislam’
– Glen Jenvey denies being ‘Richard Tims’
– Glen Jenvey feels aggrieved/confident enough to classify my assertions to the contrary to be a criminal act, motivated by hatred.
A gentleman does not make complaints to the police lightly, and I take Mr Jenvey to be a gentleman.
Therefore the onus is on me to revisit the evidence and make more of an effort to appreciate claims that much/all of it has been falsified as part of an extremist plot to discredit a successful independent anti-terrorism operative.
As I revisit this evidence, I will be presenting fresh evidence in the form of audio recordings, and seeking testimony from a British diplomat and a Conservative MP.
For the sake of clarity, I ask you to bear with me as I do all of this while maintaining the position that Glen Jenvey is being singled out for special attention by al-Qaeda operatives determined to destroy his reputation:
–
EXHIBIT #A – ‘Abu Islam’, ‘Richard Tims’, and The Sun
(This exhibit works best when read out in the voice of Fox Mulder.)
In July and August of 2008, al-Qaeda operatives submit sellyourstory.org to the following business directories under the name ‘Glen Jenvey’: 1Dir.biz, 10Directory, DirectoryHulk
They also take the calculated risk of promoting the URL on two websites that Jenvey reads on a regular basis; once on Lionheart, a website he is friendly with, and once on Ummah.com, a site he is monitoring for extremist content.
Finally, in January 2009, they hit paydirt; Jenvey sees a thread in which ‘abuislam’ is active and – playing right into the hands of al-Qaeda operatives – bases his entire story on the content posted by ‘abuislam’. This story is then passed on or sold to The Sun, who also decide to focus on the content posted by ‘abuislam’, and even feature a claim based on the ‘abuislam’ posts as their front page headline.
A moderator at Ummah.com (quite possibly acting on instructions from al-Qaeda) uncovers the carefully-laid trail leading from ‘abuislam’ to ‘Richard Tims’, but does not investigate further and/or uncover the link to Glen Jenvey; this, brilliantly, is left partially – if not entirely – to chance.
Granted, most of this seems somewhat unlikely at first, but you must remember:
(a) al-Qaeda is a fanatical, well-funded and far-reaching organisation
(b) for Jenvey himself to be behind the ‘Richard Tims’ post, he would also have to be the mastermind of a scheme where he established a website to compete with the story agency that feeds him by creating a website with a near-identical promotional domain name (SWNS attracts punters via sellusyourstory.com, while the site registered under Jenvey’s name made a similar pitch at sellyourstory.org)
(c) for Jenvey himself to be behind the ‘abuislam’ posts, he would have to knowingly and needlessly interfere with the security/publicity of several wealthy and powerful people; an act that makes no sense for a man in Jenvey’s position… with or without the risk of discovery.
Jenvey claims to be in the business of stopping extremism, not creating it or encouraging it. Stirring up any open forum with suggestions that readers take more militant action against specific individuals creates a needless risk that even most amateurs would understand to be beyond the pale, not least because you have no control over who will read and be influenced by your call to action.
But to better appreciate Mr Jenvey’s position, you must also consider the risk of discovery, which comes with the following immediate consequences:
– Alienating the news agency that supplies him with income
– Discrediting him in the eyes of a tabloid newspaper that supplies him with publicity/income
– Creating several wealthy/powerful enemies
But these consequences are only the beginning if al-Qaeda have their way…
I say ‘seemingly’ because edits involving profiles for Abu Hamza, James Ujaama, Abu Izzadeen and others paint a picture where Glen Jenvey is repeatedly offering evidence to multiple recipients in security and law enforcement who universally reject it in favour of other evidence if/when matters ever lead to the inside of a court room.
Why would Glen Jenvey undermine his credibility by constantly describing repeated circumstances in which his reliability, the reliability his evidence, and/or the method(s) used to secure it are called into question?
Why would he raise the question (again and again and again) about what exactly might be stopping various authorities from using his evidence?
The intention of al-Qaeda is clear and the pattern of their complex strategy now clearer; they seek to damage Jenvey by:
– Undermining his credibility
– Creating circumstances in which his past/methods may be subject to doubt or scrutiny
– Creating enemies within the PCC; an organisation that regulates the industry that supplies him with publicity/income
By now you should be aware of the ingenuity of al-Qaeda’s dastardly plot; Jenvey is fast running out of friends, and he appears to be the sole engineer of his own downfall.
It is about this stage that al-Qaeda strikes with a typically bold move that I hope will eventually lead to the undoing of these evil-doers.
–
EXHIBIT #C – Alleged recording of Glen Jenvey #1: The Diplomat and The Cousin
First, a word about these two clips:
* These clips are from a longer sample of audio presented to me as being part of an interview conducted with Mr Jenvey sometime in 2008.
* The only statement that I wish to make about the remaining audio at this time is that it exists and it is in my possession.
* These clips have been trimmed, but not edited in any way to rearrange or distort their original content/context.
[MINI-UPDATE – Yes, the audio is ‘real’ in that it was really sent into me and was really claimed to be a genuine audio recording of Jenvey and an unnamed interviewer. The audio is not something that I made up or invented for a laugh; it is instead a real thing that some people might choose to laugh at.]
* I have added the sub-titles (and a video background of the cave in which I imagine an al-Qaeda operative would operate) but the audio is 100% original, as delivered, fresh from the dead drop.
* I would like to stress that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for someone in Mr Jenvey’s position to be so candid in any interview, never mind a recorded one.
* Rather than subject these recordings to voice-print analysis (or even mere naked-ear comparison to other known audio of Jenvey) I instead choose to believe that this audio has been fabricated somehow by al-Qaeda operatives.
With that in mind, we arrive at the first audio file and the data therein:
‘Jenvey’: I was… I basically… I basically uncovered all the films. With…. a university professor whose cousin, Sherard, is the British Ambassador to Afghanistan, but at that stage was the British Ambassador to Saudi Arabia. If I don’t think the cops are taking me seriously… or not acting on information given over to them or MI5… we bypass them and I will use one of my number of diplomatic contacts… or it will go to Sherard. And if that fails, I then go to the press.
The process described here deserves summary; when the police do not regard certain evidence to be useful/usable for some reason, they will be bypassed and high-placed contacts within our diplomatic corps will be put to work to see if justice can’t be meted out by some other means. If those avenues fail, it will be time for trial by media.
I’m sure you can imagine how such a claim – were it to be attributed to Mr Jenvey – would isolate him politically.
But unlike other claims made in Jenvey’s name, this claim does not involve a security outfit with a policy of never making public statements; instead, this claim is made about a public figure.
For the first time, it is possible to cast light upon the shadowy claims that surround Mr Jenvey:
To: Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles
From: Tim Ireland
Subject: ‘Glen Jenvey’ audio
Sir Sherard,
I have been presented with audio that purports to be part of an interview with terror expert Glen Jenvey. The authenticity of this audio has yet to be fully established and I feel it only fair to warn you that some people – Jenvey included – suspect an extremist plot to discredit him:
As you are named in the audio file, you’re in an excellent position to make a judgement about its reliability/accuracy, and I’d be most grateful if you could answer the following questions:
– Have you in the past and/or do you at the present time have an information/intelligence-sharing relationship with terror expert Glen Jenvey, either directly or via an intermediary?
– If so, would you regard the arrangements described in the first audio file to be a fair/reliable description of your relationship with Mr Jenvey?
– Just on the off-chance; are you aware of this cousin person, and – if so – may we have his/her name?
– What are your thoughts on the likelihood that this audio evidence has been fabricated (possibly by al-Qaeda operatives)?
I’m happy to publish any response you may have, so please reply soonest.
Cheers
Tim Ireland
www.bloggerheads.com
OK, that should clear things up pretty quickly on audio file #1. Watch for updates.
Moving on…
–
EXHIBIT #D – Alleged recording of Glen Jenvey #2: Richard Tims and Some Guy Called Mike
This second clip is longer, but it will reward those patient enough to listen to it in its entirety:
‘Jenvey’: I’ve been a bit cheeky. I can’t get onto actual, um… Hotmail at the moment, yeh? But… my old friend, Omar Bakri Mohammad…
Interviewer: Who’s not in this country at the moment, is he?
‘Jenvey’: No… (he) loves speaking to journalists.
Interviewer: All right.
‘Jenvey’: Right, so we find (inaudible)… [searches for file/folder]… Um… Can’t find it. Anyhow, Bakri’s… Ah! Here it is. [locates file/folder] Now, this is me… I phoned Bakri…
Interviewer: Yeah
‘Jenvey’: … on a mobile phone. Spoke to him… about Abu Izzadeen
Interviewer: Mm-hm
‘Jenvey’: Saying that I felt that… if the police had this so-called evidence for so long
Interviewer: Mmm-hm
‘Jenvey’: Um… on your computer…
Interviewer (reading): “Mr Richard Tims”
‘Jenvey’: That’s my… one of my false names.
Interviewer: That’s you, is it? OK.
‘Jenvey’: Unlike… I know MI5 do not use reporters… um… and… they don’t pose as press
Interviewer: Mmm
‘Jenvey’: However, I’m freelance so I pose as anyone… to get what I what.
Interviewer: OK
‘Jenvey’: This is Bakri making a statement.
Interviewer (reading): “To Mr…”
Interviewer: for the record…
Interviewer (reading): “To Mr Richard Tims”… <- a long emailed statement follows -> “… best regards, Sheikh Omar Bakri”
Interviewer: That’s what he said to you?
‘Jenvey’: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: When was that?
Interviewer (reading): “5th February 2008”
‘Jenvey’: So basically, he’s saying they found <- interruption: he informs housemate of pasta status -> he’s saying that the police found it at his home in 2006.
Interviewer: Yeah.
‘Jenvey’: I gave the tape… originally to the police in 2005.
Interviewer: OK
‘Jenvey’: Mike went to the MI5 in two thousand and… I think he went in 2006… ‘cos I arranged a meeting
Interviewer: Mm
‘Jenvey’: Um… for Mike to go and visit MI5 and hand over tapes.
The first thing that strikes most people about this audio clip is the ‘Richard Tims’ admission, but even more worrying is the claim about a freelance spy posing as a journalist.
The involvement of real or fake journalists in the intelligence game is frowned upon in media circles for reasons that should be obvious.
Again, you should be able to see another aspect of al-Qaeda’s cunning plan that’s specifically designed to render Jenvey utterly friendless in the industry that sustains him.
Mr Jenvey works as both a spy and a journalist; this makes the charge that he would pose as one while acting as the other that much more believable.
(And note also the returning narrative of unused evidence – this time involving a mysterious go-between, ‘Mike’ – all of which appears designed to queer the deal with his intelligence contacts.)
Happily, we have to hand a trustworthy man who is familiar with both the spying and reporting aspects of Jenvey’s career, and he should be able to clear Jenvey’s name at a stroke:
To: Patrick Mercer, MP (Con.)
From: Tim Ireland
Subject: ‘Glen Jenvey’ audio
Dear Patrick,
I have been presented with audio that purports to be part of an interview with terror expert Glen Jenvey. The authenticity of this audio has yet to be fully established and I feel it only fair to warn you that some people – Jenvey included – suspect an extremist plot to discredit him:
You are known in media circles as a straight-talking man who is familiar with Jenvey’s intelligence-gathering capabilities and his work as a journalist. You are therefore in a good position to make a judgement about this audio file and its reliability/accuracy, and I’d be most grateful if you could answer the following questions:
– Have you in the past ever known Mr Glen Jenvey to not only work as a journalist and a spy, but also to pose as one while acting as the other?
– If so, would you regard the arrangements described in the first audio file to be a fair/reliable description of Mr Jenvey’s typical approach?
– Are there any reasons that you are personally aware of that might make evidence presented by Mr Jenvey somehow unsuitable for use inside of a courtroom?
– Just on the off-chance; are you aware of this ‘Mike’ person, and – if so – may we have his/her surname?
– What are your thoughts on the likelihood that this audio evidence has been fabricated (possibly by al-Qaeda operatives)?
I’m happy to publish any statement you may have, so please reply soonest.
Cheers
Tim Ireland
www.bloggerheads.com
So, pretty soon that should sort me for an answer to audio file #2.
_______________________________
THE INTERIM CONCLUSION
_______________________________
I have no doubt that this audio evidence is the hollow mockery of an empty sham, and that Jenvey will be proved to be entirely innocent of any wrong-doing.
After all, we know al-Qaeda is capable of worse… and the alternative to the ‘set up’ scenario is such an unthinkable political nightmare for all concerned that one dare not spell it out.
No way in hell are we going to find out that elements of our security, diplomatic, parliamentary and media channels have all been under the influence of a dim-witted, ego-driven and woefully indiscreet wannabe doofus.
(knocks on wood)
Oh, and before I forget…
_______________________________
ONE DIRECT QUESTION
_______________________________
To: Jeremy Reynalds
From: Tim Ireland
Subject: ‘Glen Jenvey’ audio
Hi Jeremy.
I’ve recently come around to your way of thinking on this, and I was wondering if Glen wouldn’t mind making a brief statement about the likely authenticity of the following recordings:
I’m happy to publish any statement he may have, so please reply soonest.
Cheers
Tim Ireland
www.bloggerheads.com
_______________________________
UPDATES
_______________________________
To follow. Let’s roll.
–
UPDATE (3:30pm) – All public-facing phone (and fax) lines to the British Embassy in Kabul are “not accepting calls at present”. I am making every effort to reach Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles by other means.
UPDATE (3:45pm) – Valid email address for Sir Sherard found. Message sent. Problem solved.
–
UPDATE (03 Mar, midday) – Patrick Mercer’s office isn’t entirely sure if they wish to comment on evidence that hasn’t been fully authenticated. No word from Sir Sherard’s office yet. Meanwile, Glen Jenvey is taking a very long time to decide if this audio is authentic or not.
–
UPDATE (10pm) – I just finished a short exchange of emails with Mr Jenvey, and I have been promised further correspondence later tomorrow. Still no word on the audio’s authenticity.
4. ‘Zero’ is the most perfect of all numbers. There should be more of it.
OK, job done. Back to the grindstone.
PS – Yay, Tom: Government levels the playing field for Open Source … oh, and thanks again for the NHS, and for the smoke-free environments, just in case that didn’t come across. Now, can we maybe tidy up this torture nonsense? Please? I’d be able to enjoy all of these benefits a lot more if they didn’t come at the cost of some poor soul having their genitals mutilated. It’s putting me off my tea.
Reuters – (Luke Baker) Exclusive: Lawyer says Guantanamo abuse worse since Obama: Abuse of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay has worsened sharply since President Barack Obama took office as prison guards “get their kicks in” before the camp is closed, according to a lawyer who represents detainees. Abuses began to pick up in December after Obama was elected, human rights lawyer Ahmed Ghappour told Reuters. He cited beatings, the dislocation of limbs, spraying of pepper spray into closed cells, applying pepper spray to toilet paper and over-forcefeeding detainees who are on hunger strike.
PA – Straw ‘will veto” Iraq minutes: The Government will exercise veto powers to block publication of key Cabinet minutes under freedom of information laws, it has been announced. Justice Secretary Jack Straw said he could not permit the release of records from 2003 discussions over the invasion of Iraq because it would cause too much “damage” to democracy…. For Tories, Dominic Grieve backed the decision to block publication but said it left an “overwhelming case” for a full review into the Iraq invasion.
With a safely narrow remit, I’ll wager.
Well, that’s it, then; the headline to this veto article may as well read; “Tory victory assured – ‘more of same’ to continue”
(Jeebus… no wonder Labour wanted a lying cheat in charge of their rabid rebuttal unit. Draper will have to do some serious backflips to dodge any fair/open discussion of this on LabourList.)
“The flow of information between the government and people is fundamental to a vigorous and robust democracy. Information empowers people.”
Jack Straw, Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice – June 2008
“Freedom of Information can be inconvenient, at times frustrating and indeed embarrassing for governments. But Freedom of Information is the right course because government belongs to the people, not the politicians.”
Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s ‘Speech on Liberty’ – October 2007
But then, I’m sure there are equally-strenuous statements from each of these gentlemen assuring us that torture is wrong and that responsible democracies should do everything in their power to discourage it.
(Gosh, I hope members and supporters of the Labour party/government who are wondering why I’m outside the tent and pissing in are reading this post. It contains *clues*. Oh, and Derek Draper appears to be using the Iain Dale method of conversation censorship; if Draper and his team of tame writers avoid mentioning Lord Ashcroft Iraq or torture in their posts this week, any attempt to start a conversation about Iraq or torture on LabourList can safely be deleted/dismissed as ‘off topic’. Brilliant, eh?)
